Rusty Bowtie
General Category => General Discussion - Intros => Topic started by: 62131 on February 10, 2017, 09:44:57 PM
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Does anyone have ideals about a shut-off circuit for an electric fuel pump due to a line that might burst or an accident?
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Mid 80's early 90's FoMoCo(Crown Vic,Mustg, etc)had real simple inertia switches mounted in the trunk, usually under package tray or qtr panel inner reinforcment strap. Any jolt shuts them down.
That should cover accedent, then an additional manual cut off in line (bottom of dash?)for other troubles when you have time to react
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Found that one and one that works off oil pressure switch in case fuel line rupture
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I have been running the old stewart warner 240A 12V electric fuel pump since 1970 in my coupe and I use an on off switch under the seat and also as a theft prevention device.
the automatic shut off ford device sounds like an excellent idea.
mike 8)
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I'm thinking of safety issues here. if your in an accident and can't turn the pump off it can spray fuel and cause a fire. or if a fuel line ruptures it can spray fuel on hot component's. Just want to be safe.
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Stock cars will have a centrally located and labeled fuel shut off valve in case of a wreck so the track crew can just reach in and turn off the fuel.
Like Mike mentioned you can easily mount a power switch to cut the fuel off. The Ford cars have bump switches in the trunk, they have a simple reset button.
If you want to get serious you could install a full electrical shut down switch like the one attached...shuts everything down and prevents electrical fires that could spread or ignite spilled fuel.
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I had the inertia switch on my '66 Mustang. When I got finished painting and was putting the wheels back on, I released the floor jack too fast(hands givin me fits) and bounced down. The car wouldn't start, scratched my head a bit before i remembered to check inertia switch ;D
Same car a year and a half later, just heading out of town and smelled fuel. Pulled over and shut off. Short rubber line just past the frame rail fuel filter had blown a hole and was spraying on the rear of the headers. Grabbed a plastic cup out of the ditch, wedged behind line to deflect the fuel to get back to the shop.Note, still had enough pressure to run the EFI. I don't know how sensitive the fuel pressure switch would be, but I would darn sure install the toggle (manual elect on/off) switch. Some times the nose knows first! ;)
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I have a oil pressure cutoff switch in my 32. The pump will only run if the engine is running of if the starter is engaged. If you do try to use this setup a word of caution. When I first built the car I used a Delco switch because after working for GM for a number if years and and being with their pressure shutoff switches that were used in production on some models I felt confident with it. That didn't last long because it failed soon after getting the car on the road leaving me on the side of the road swearing and scratching my head. Luckily I had a test light with me and was able to determine that the pressure switch had failed and was able to bypass it to get home. I got a warranty replacement from my GM parts manager and it also failed within 500 miles. I didn't want to give up the safety factor of this setup so I did some research and found that GM was now outsourcing the switches overseas and they were crap. In talking with a GM engineer that I know I was told to use a pressure switch that GM was using in their Diesel industrial engines because they were designed for use is severe conditions and were overly engineered . I put one in and have not had any problems for over 6 years now. Take a look at the .PDF file attached for the tech data..
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I have a oil pressure cutoff switch in my 32. The pump will only run if the engine is running of if the starter is engaged. If you do try to use this setup a word of caution. When I first built the car I used a Delco switch because after working for GM for a number if years and and being with their pressure shutoff switches that were used in production on some models I felt confident with it. That didn't last long because it failed soon after getting the car on the road leaving me on the side of the road swearing and scratching my head. Luckily I had a test light with me and was able to determine that the pressure switch had failed and was able to bypass it to get home. I got a warranty replacement from my GM parts manager and it also failed within 500 miles. I didn't want to give up the safety factor of this setup so I did some research and found that GM was now outsourcing the switches overseas and they were crap. In talking with a GM engineer that I know I was told to use a pressure switch that GM was using in their Diesel industrial engines because they were designed for use is severe conditions and were overly engineered . I put one in and have not had any problems for over 6 years now. Take a look at the .PDF file attached for the tech data..
Moose did you use this in the fuel line or oil pressure from the engine, do you have a wiring diagram by chance , which switch did you use. I'm sure there's a relay involved I'm wanting to include the Ford inertia switch that Sammons is talking in the circuitry and that should give me a safety cut off for both condition of a fuel link and collision. I hope I'm not over thinking this.
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Moose did you use this in the fuel line or oil pressure from the engine, do you have a wiring diagram by chance , which switch did you use. I'm sure there's a relay involved I'm wanting to include the Ford inertia switch that Sammons is talking in the circuitry and that should give me a safety cut off for both condition of a fuel link and collision. I hope I'm not over thinking this.
You use the oil pressure from the engine , that way if the engine shuts off because of an accident or a ruptured line causing the arbitrator or FI to starve for fuel thus killing the engine the fuel pump will shot off due to lack or pressure to the switch. One lead on the NC post goes to the starter which allows the pump to run while the starter is cranking. Once the engine starts the switch opens the NC contacts and closes the NO circuit allowing the pump to run with voltage supplied from the ignition circuit. I used switch number 5A because I'm using a high pressure oil pump that will never drop below 14lbs at idle and has a max pressure of 150psi which is more than enough for what the max of my oil pump will ever produce. Depending on you oil pressure you might want to go with the one of the lower pressure ones to make sure the pump doesn't shut off at idle. They all have at least a 150 lb over pressure rating so you don't have to worry about damaging the switch with a high perf pump.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/jpersons/Alternator%20and%20wiring/Fuelsafetyshutoff.jpg)
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Attached the instructions for your EFI setup....looks like the blue wire Pin C is the wire you need to (switch) before it gets to the fuel pump.
Are you going to use the EFI to turn on cooling fans?
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If the fuel pump circuit is wired correctly whether it be a carbureated or FI system it should go through a relay. All you need to do is wire the OP cutoff switch in line with switched side of the relay and it will work correctly and as Ed said ,according to the FI wiring in your case it will be the blue wire. Really simple to do...
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Attached the instructions for your EFI setup....looks like the blue wire Pin C is the wire you need to (switch) before it gets to the fuel pump.
Are you going to use the EFI to turn on cooling fans?
I wasn't planning on it, currently I have it on a temperature switch in the intake controlling the fan relay, also it's wired to come on when I turn on the a/c
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Attached the instructions for your EFI setup....looks like the blue wire Pin C is the wire you need to (switch) before it gets to the fuel pump.
Are you going to use the EFI to turn on cooling fans?
I wasn't planning on it, currently I have it on a temperature switch in the intake controlling the fan relay, also it's wired to come on when I turn on the a/c
You should be fine that way..on my 94 Chevy truck with TPI I have a manual fan and don't even have an electric fan. Don't know if you have the 8 or 10 pin EFI but to have the fan come on via the ECM you would just need to remove the current intake switch wire and hook it up to the Pin C wire on the 10 pin connector - it (ECM) would then supply the ground the current relay you must already have. That's something you can consider once the car is up and running. I assume you have a single speed electric fan.
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Attached the instructions for your EFI setup....looks like the blue wire Pin C is the wire you need to (switch) before it gets to the fuel pump.
Are you going to use the EFI to turn on cooling fans?
I wasn't planning on it, currently I have it on a temperature switch in the intake controlling the fan relay, also it's wired to come on when I turn on the a/c
You should be fine that way..on my 94 Chevy truck with TPI I have a manual fan and don't even have an electric fan. Don't know if you have the 8 or 10 pin EFI but to have the fan come on via the ECM you would just need to remove the current intake switch wire and hook it up to the Pin C wire on the 10 pin connector - it (ECM) would then supply the ground the current relay you must already have. That's something you can consider once the car is up and running. I assume you have a single speed electric fan.
Yes it's Spal 16" single speed fan
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Attached the instructions for your EFI setup....looks like the blue wire Pin C is the wire you need to (switch) before it gets to the fuel pump.
Are you going to use the EFI to turn on cooling fans?
I wasn't planning on it, currently I have it on a temperature switch in the intake controlling the fan relay, also it's wired to come on when I turn on the a/c
You should be fine that way..on my 94 Chevy truck with TPI I have a manual fan and don't even have an electric fan. Don't know if you have the 8 or 10 pin EFI but to have the fan come on via the ECM you would just need to remove the current intake switch wire and hook it up to the Pin C wire on the 10 pin connector - it (ECM) would then supply the ground the current relay you must already have. That's something you can consider once the car is up and running. I assume you have a single speed electric fan.
Yes it's Spal 16" single speed fan
Looking at the diagram..you'll need to install their temp sending unit to control the ecm (open/closed loop). If you decide to keep your existing fan setup...you'll need to install their supplied sending unit also.
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I was planning on using the port on the passage side head to install that sending unit.
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I was planning on using the port on the passage side head to install that sending unit.
That'll work.
Bought a Honda motorcycle to part out and connected a very small LED to it's electric fuel pump...just to let me know when the pump was on while I was trying to start it after sitting in storage for years. Maybe something to consider for your project..the LEDs are really small and draw minimal current..in a no start situation you would know whether or not the pump has power.
I put a small LED (1/4") on my dash of my 33 Chevy to let me know when the torque converter locks up. May just run one from the fuel pump also.
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Looking at the diagram..you'll need to install their temp sending unit to control the ecm (open/closed loop). If you decide to keep your existing fan setup...you'll need to install their supplied sending unit also.
Ed , I'm assuming that Holley is using a heated wide band 02 sensor which should signal the ECM to go into closed loop well before the coolant sensor would. I wonder why they use the coolant sensor for this input.
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Looking at the diagram..you'll need to install their temp sending unit to control the ecm (open/closed loop). If you decide to keep your existing fan setup...you'll need to install their supplied sending unit also.
Ed , I'm assuming that Holley is using a heated wide band 02 sensor which should signal the ECM to go into closed loop well before the coolant sensor would. I wonder why they use the coolant sensor for this input.
From instructions looks like the self learning (air fuel ratio) doesn't kick in until the engine hits 160 degrees F.
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From instructions looks like the self learning (air fuel ratio) doesn't kick in until the engine hits 160 degrees F.
I guess because system isn't concerned about catalytic converter performance the PCM is controlling injector pulse width in open loop based on the criteria that is pre programmed into the system when you run the setup procedure based on you engine and installed components such as displacement, camshaft ect. Once the coolant reaches the temp that you mentioned the system goes into closed loop and monitors real time data from the such as 02 sensor voltage, tps ,RPM and manifold vacuum to control fuel delivery rates with engine performance being the goal rather than the controlling emissions which are lowest at the stoichiometric ruel ratio of 14.7 to 1. A richer mixture will give better performance and run cooler so is a win/win on a performance engine. I never really looked at the Holley system in much detail before but it looks like a pretty simple and effective system. Now you’ve got my wheels turning….I wonder how the 32 would like a transplant.
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From instructions looks like the self learning (air fuel ratio) doesn't kick in until the engine hits 160 degrees F.
I guess because system isn't concerned about catalytic converter performance the PCM is controlling injector pulse width in open loop based on the criteria that is pre programmed into the system when you run the setup procedure based on you engine and installed components such as displacement, camshaft ect. Once the coolant reaches the temp that you mentioned the system goes into closed loop and monitors real time data from the such as 02 sensor voltage, tps ,RPM and manifold vacuum to control fuel delivery rates with engine performance being the goal rather than the controlling emissions which are lowest at the stoichiometric ruel ratio of 14.7 to 1. A richer mixture will give better performance and run cooler so is a win/win on a performance engine. I never really looked at the Holley system in much detail before but it looks like a pretty simple and effective system. Now you’ve got my wheels turning….I wonder how the 32 would like a transplant.
That Holley EFI system appears to be first class, as you know the use of the wideband sensor versus the singleband sensor allows for really accurate air/fuel ratio adjustment (voltage range). My TPI engines only use the singleband one wire O2 sensor (non heated) so on cool days it can float from open to closed loop and the 1227730 ecm just can't make the precise fuel/air that the Holley system does. I can always adapt a 3/4 wire up stream O2 sensor if need be, but I'm heading toward the LS family anyway. The Holley EFI looks to be a well engineered system.
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Ed...Can't you get your prom re-burned to possibly work better with your application?
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Ed...Can't you get your prom re-burned to possibly work better with your application?
Yes...I can do it myself..just need to wire in a wideband sensor and datalog..the problem is the car isn't on the road, maybe this year. The 1227730 ecm works with the one volt O2 single wire sensor..the wideband sensors operate with five volt range. I just started flashing MEMCAL's and the OBD1 LT1 ecm's and having fun.
Have TPI in my 33 Chevy and 94 Chevy truck and burned both proms to disabled EGR, VATS etc. I have several bins from buddies with adjusted fuel trims and am using the Super AUJP bin.
Flashed a few LT1 ecm's also. What's neat about the LT1 is that you can go to FBODYTECH.com enter your engine data, gear ratio, driveline info etc and download a custom bin for free. It's works well, for my son's car I just changed the electric fan(s) kick on temps since we installed a 160 degree thermostat.
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Well Ed , the way things are going these days maybe you should re-enable VATS ;)
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Had to cut my new tank and install a flat recessed area on the top of the tank so that the fuel pump flange would set flat. The way the top of the tank is made there's not enough of a flat area to mount the pump flange flat. Hope to get it tig welded tomorrow. I'll post pictures soon.
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Had to cut my new tank and install a flat recessed area on the top of the tank so that the fuel pump flange would set flat. The way the top of the tank is made there's not enough of a flat area to mount the pump flange flat. Hope to get it tig welded tomorrow. I'll post pictures soon.
I have a feeling your're going to like that system...does that fuel pump unit have a return line built into it?
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Yes it does, there's even a port for a vent fitting and a sump for the pre filter to set in to prevent starvation of the pump.
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Here's some picture's of my tank with the new opening for the fuel pump.
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Just received my Car Craft (May 2017) magazine today..there is a write up on the Holley Sniper EFI (page 34). Didn't get a chance to read it yet....
Just noticed the story was also posted at:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/test-holleys-new-sniper-efi/
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I'll check it out in the morning
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Article doesn't discuss fuel mileage or general street performance related to ease of starting and self tuning. They installed it on a performance engine focusing on torque and HP...EFI in general just makes starting and driving easier and more enjoyable.
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Looking at the comparison between Carburetor and the EFI in that article the EFI looks to perform better at higher rpm's
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Over the weekend I got my fuel lines ran and my tank mounted back in the car with the new fuel pump wired .I'll finish up running the rest of the wiring this week and when my new EFI arrives I'll be ready to just drop it in and hook it and tune and go for a ride.
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62131 make sure you set the electric fuel pump into the ignition switch.so if you have to kill it at any time its simple shut the key off.I set mine on ACC.so when i turn the key to the first notch the pump comes on when the pressure is sufficient the pump shuts off and its time to start vette59jdwl
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My plan is to install a three terminal oil pressure switch, wire it thru the n/c while starting and the n/o will close while in the run position keeping power to the pump, if I should ever get a leak on the pressure line the engine should stall and kill the power to the pump. I think I said that right.
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I was cleaning my tank from the cutting and welding that was done. I vacuumed the tank out wiped it down and then dropped a couple of magnets in and poured in some mineral sprits and sloshed that around picking up any metal particles on the magnets that I had missed from vacuuming and wiping, had to clean magnets several times to remove all particles. After I quit picking up any metal particles I removed the mineral sprits and I just left the magnets in the tank as an added precaution.
I ran new 3/8's aluminum supply and return lines, after all my fittings were installed and before I connect my flexible lines I blew air thru the lines to remove any aluminum particles that might had fallen in while de burring the ends that I cut.
The question is would you run fuel thru them or is blowing them out sufficient? The magnets wont help here.
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My plan is to install a three terminal oil pressure switch, wire it thru the n/c while starting and the n/o will close while in the run position keeping power to the pump, if I should ever get a leak on the pressure line the engine should stall and kill the power to the pump. I think I said that right.
That's how the stock TPI engines are wired.
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I was cleaning my tank from the cutting and welding that was done. I vacuumed the tank out wiped it down and then dropped a couple of magnets in and poured in some mineral sprits and sloshed that around picking up any metal particles on the magnets that I had missed from vacuuming and wiping, had to clean magnets several times to remove all particles. After I quit picking up any metal particles I removed the mineral sprits and I just left the magnets in the tank as an added precaution.
I ran new 3/8's aluminum supply and return lines, after all my fittings were installed and before I connect my flexible lines I blew air thru the lines to remove any aluminum particles that might had fallen in while de burring the ends that I cut.
The question is would you run fuel thru them or is blowing them out sufficient? The magnets wont help here.
Personally from what you did so far...I would think you are good to go! Fill it up and start it. Does the kit come with an inline filter?
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My EFI kit will not be here for another week, they have some parts on back order. No it does not come with an inline filter but I purchased one like what's in the complete kit from our local parts house
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Guess you can get the O2 bung welded in while waiting.
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that's my plan even thou it comes with a clamp on flange with the bung already welded in iy