Rusty Bowtie
Miscellaneous => Garage Gripes => Topic started by: ChevRon on December 11, 2020, 10:17:31 AM
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Been working on the roadster now I have my own shop next to the house. Working on the front end. These parallel leaf cars are hard to get low. I like mine to bottom out on the white lines in the road ::).
Exhaust Got the exhaust back to the rear axle, have to finish my gas tank before I go any further. Still have a lot of welding to do.
Side Note.. I've been building this car for a number of years, and am finding I'm having to redo some of my earlier "engineering". That being said I had to do a few "whoop de dos" to get the tubing through the frame.
Some visuals ( Pics)
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Front end Just a couple... Still have to finish .
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Looking great Ron! Doing the exhaust on my 33 was a fun project. You figure it out after a while.
Tom
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It's always fun doing things a second time! I had the same problem with the parallel leaf springs. I ended up taking out a couple leaves and having the eyes reversed (I can't tell in your pictures what you have). That got my front end as low as I wanted it.
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Question What are you guys with straight axles running for caster??
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Looking great Ron! Doing the exhaust on my 33 was a fun project. You figure it out after a while.
Tom
Tom Thanks.. I know I love doing exhaust. Probably done 30 of them. Sometimes trying to make them "flow" is the hard part. Ron
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It's always fun doing things a second time! I had the same problem with the parallel leaf springs. I ended up taking out a couple leaves and having the eyes reversed (I can't tell in your pictures what you have). That got my front end as low as I wanted it.
At least I hope to learn something the 2nd or third time around.. My front spring set up is goofy. Not using shackles created a huge problem.. I post pictures later. Thanks Ron
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YES! Getting low with parallel springs is way tougher than a Ford setup. Are you using a Chevy pickup axle? Did you Z the front of your frame rails? On some of the old cars they either turned the rails around or added rear sections to the front to use the step up. Some put the springs outside of the rails. Some put the spring on top of the axle. I've been trying to plan this part for a long time. Mine can't be too low because there is the 2 miles of dirt road to deal with. The bottom line is that in order to support the front of the springs the axle has to be under the frame, no suicide option. Dropped axles can help but much more of a drop than the AD pickup axles looks goofy. You also can end up with the springs in the way of the steering links. I'm sure you know all of this.
Right now my plan is to modify a pickup axle to mount on top of the spring and build spring packs that get me as low as possible before the axle hits the frame. The engine pan can be an issue. I have broken MANY lightened spring packs on my '53 pickup and there is a small dent in the pan from the axle. The truck is hardly noticeably lowered.
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Frame is a modified 27 Chev. No kickup , not Z ed. After adding leafs and a wedge for caster to support the car "only had one leaf with a block in between spring and axle" It raised the front 1" and and left 2 1/2 " of clearance.
Front is little higher that I want, but don't have much choice other than putting axle in the mill and cutting groove for the springs to set in. Being it is a light car I think the axle would still be strong enough. I would add strength by adding some 1/4" plate under the spring in the front and rear of the axle . Axle has already been narrowed 7 1/4". so its already been welded. Probably won't do it. I'll see how well it drives first.
My road is bad enough I'll have to haul it to the hiway anyway..
A couple pics
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This might help. Off-roaders have been using these "slider boxes" , it eliminates the shackle and allows the spring to slide front to back during spring travel.
It may effect castor angles if stock axle.
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Thanks Rattiac.. That"s kinda what I did. And you are right it really affected my caster because my front spring eye is lower than the rear so my axle leans forward. I have added angle wedges which because of their thickness raised the front.
which I didn't want. I did get my caster back, but it is only 3 degrees. As I said before my engineering is causing problems. Thanks again appreciate it. Ron
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Ron, That's pretty low to me. How much drop is in the axle? You did a great job with your frame. I stole pictures of that before.
Rattiac, Those are cool.
Here are some interesting old drawings showing ways to attach leaf springs.
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Hope I'm not bothering you guys with all this , but I appreciate the help. The axle is 6" total I think , but I'll have to measure it. . There is still clearance from the ground for the scrub line. The front spreader is low to the ground but a side view doesn't leave much of a rake. I love those drawings and I may do a 1/4 elliptic just to get past all this, but wanted to use as much Chevrolet chassis parts as I could . It's on jack stands now. When I get it down I'ii get a side shot. Ron
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I'm enjoying hearing about your roadster and seeing how you are solving some of the same issues I have.
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I guess you could always put a short shackle back in and have a spring made with reversed eye's.
That would get your caster back and a tad lower.
My neighbor accross the street works at AAA spring and can make you anything if you need it.
BTW what springs are in it ?
Being a parallel spring guy myself, im always curious of what people are doing with thier front axles.😊
This might sound crazy but if your axle pin is exactly centered in between the eye's of the spring like stock springs are, you could flip the spring but that might get you way too low, hitting frame.
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Custom springs could help if you know exactly what you need. I gad a set of the mono leaf type but they broke. When they break there is no support. In a pack of several leaves the don't all break at once.
After years of messing with these I recently learned that the leaves on the rear AD pickups are thicker and stronger than the fronts so in packs with fewer leaves might be made with these. ? I'm also mulling over the idea of notching into the axle and incorporating a channel into the mount. I think you could get up to 2" that way and not weaken the axle. The pickup axles are overkill any way.
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Thanks for the suggestions Rattiac and Sixball.
Rattiac I like the way you think, unfortunately I can't do any of them. Pics show my set up. Explains why. I do need main leafs made ,so I may take you up on having them do the springs.
Sixball Working in the dirt like I did for 5 years after moving up here. Man looks like a lot of destroyed springs. Your're right, those monoleafs don't last because they are cast instead of forged. My springs are the original 27 springs , pretty thin. Spring centers are unequal.
So front springs eyes are hidden the front frame horns. Rear spring eyes are in blocks in Delrin with a slot cut in them. There is a stainless steel pin that goes through the eye of the spring and sticks out on either side. It rides in the slot. I did it tha way because I used sliders like Rattiac showed in our Chevy II drag car. Very noisy . They "clack" a lot. Not good on a street car. Some pics on the spring and spring eyes.. Might help in understanding how I over engineered this.
They are a little fuzzy sorry
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How tight are the pins in the Darlin? How long do you think they will last? How did you figure out the length of the slots?
My buddy Vic and I were on our way to Bonneville and both front springs broke within 50 yards of the house, better than 50 miles. :) After pawing through that pile of broken springs, some of those were on the pickup, I pulled my last stock pair from a donor frame but I had to remove the good bushings from the broken ones and put them in the good springs. We were leaving home at 8:00 am originally but wound up leaving the bar at 3:00 pm. ::) We got to Wendover about 4:00 am. We had a great time.
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Now there's a pair. Great picture. I know breaking down is no fun , but some of my best memories are working a hot rod on the roadside. Love that truck , best driver a guy could have.
Springs.... Slot is made with a mill , the pin move easily. The Delrin does not cold work like teflon, very slick, machineable, extremely durable. The slot is longer than it has to be. About 1 1/4". I laid the main leaf on the floor and marked it collapsed it, measured how far it moved. In this case 1/2" it all relies on much arch there is. So here is an idea hope I can explain it. If the slot is angled down from front to rear it would make it slightly harder to move and at the same time tend to move the car up. When the spring compreses it gets longer and pushes backwards , but it might help. Ron
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That sounds like a good idea. Would that effect the caster?
I removed the frame shackle mounts from '49 Pickup thinking I might be able to use them to lower my roadster by moving the shackle up into the frame rail. On the pickup the shackle is up front, on the roadster it is at the rear of the spring. My driver side shackle mount also mounts the stock steering box that I want to use. Steering geometry my not let that happen. Anyway putting the shackle top pin up in the frame would lower the car and allow use of a shackle. The frame might need a notch but it worked on the pickup.
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Vic and I had several near death experiences in that pickup over the years. Some were documented. Someone should do more maintenance on that thing. Sadly he died at Bonneville a year ago August. Just there watching with his brother in law, I couldn't go, he laid down for a nap didn't wake up.
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Moving that rear shackle up will help. It'll give about half of the distance at the axle the shackle was raised.
How is the roadster doing. Any more progress...
I remember you mentioning about your friend. Very sorry.. At our age we lose some. Lost one of my best friends 2 years ago.
So to move forward I need to get this thing running enough to drive. I really appreciate everyone's time with suggestions. Thanks.
By the way, how did I get this thread in garage gripes??
Ron
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Beats me, but I can gripe about anything. ;D
I went through all the stuff of moving the roadster to a friends shop where he and another friend were going to help me assemble it. That didn't work and while it was gone other junk filled the space. My goal for the winter is to totally reorganize the shop and get it all back up here. Even though I don't get much done on it I can walk out to the shop and do something. A 5 mile drive to work on it in another guy's shop doesn't work. I can haul the pieces I can't do here somewhere for help. Also other guys, no matter how good of friends, have different ideas. I think they are tired if hearing, " because it's a Chevy!" :o
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I found some more pictures in my file about these front ends. One of yours, one of a stock height '25-'26, and one of a Zd frame with the axle on top. Yours looks perfect to me but too low for my road. I'd be happy if mine looks as cool as the '25-'26 but anything lower would be better. I think my plan will drop it 4"-6". I think the Zd frame would be better if the Z was a little further back so there would be room to move the shackle up into the frame. I hope to do a cleaner job of mounting the axle on top. The Z creates issues hood and radiator alignment.
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I think you can get it low enough with out screwing with the frame. Never was a fan of modifying the front frame rails, at least as far has height goes. The 25-26 look is what I would shoot for.
Here is a picture of Dick Bertalucci's 1930 Chev roadster drag car front axle.. How he did this I would like to know. Very well done Ron
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Wonder if he cut off the tabs (with bolt holes) and re-welded em to the lower part of the axle.
Dosent seem like much travel. Probably smacks frame easily.
Here's my experience with lowering car's.
To get it to look good you lose driveability, especially on the highway.
Same thing with lifting vehicles more than 3".
(Steering issues and driveshaft vibrations)
This is why I kept my 32 stock height. Got tired of all that and just wanted a reliable driver.
Plus when I was into lowriders, I got pulled over daily. Mostly by the gang task force unit. Those guys are corrupt and dont care about rights.
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I think that's what he did.. It's a drag car so it probably worked ok for him.
Driving a lowered car any more with the roads getting worse every year is something to consider.. Especially freeways where the big trucks run.
Cops. Been there done that. Always wanting give you a hard time. Don't have much faith in them. Ron
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The first night I took my first car out, "38 Ford coupe in 1961, I ran into one of those cops. Those guys are running at about 10-1 with the good ones. A couple of the good ones were really good ones.
That is just what I have planned for my axle. I will make a mount plate with holes for the u-bolts and mill a recess for it into the bottom of the axle. Then I'll cut the top mount off , weld, shape and fill as needed. I'll be sure to take pictures. I'll have more arch in my springs to get more clearance and make sure the spring pack is stiff enough to avoid contact with the frame. Probably some rubber snubbers somewhere. That is one reason I'm bringing it all back home so I can just do it and not have to explain it or justify it.
As for lowered cars I've never liked them so low that it created issues. Lowness was one of the issues that night in '61. :( I have a lot to work with between the bottom of the stock one and the ground. :)
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I have a buddy like that, he can tell you how and all about doing it, but has never built a car, he's good at buying and cleaning one that someone else has built and takes credit for it because he owns it >:(
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These guys are good and do nice work but no matter what they build it leans heavily to the Ford side. They are good friends and only want to help me get the roadster together so we can all have fun with our hot rods. They will be more fun putting the Essex speedster together. None of us know what we are doing there. :o
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Well I was just replying to this thread and my computer just dropped it all. So I'll shorten this up
Sixball.. What you said will work very well . Don't forget the pics. In my shop in Phoenix we lowered many, many, vehicles. you can stop a lot of ill handling and bottoming out with good shocks.
62131 Doesn't that upset you. I know a few of those guys. Happened to me quite often.
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Yes it gets on my nerves, I can only be around him a short while, known him for 56 years sorta have to keep him around as old friend
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There was one of those guys around here. My favorite part of him that although he bragged how great the cars he bought were he was so ignorant that the usually bought crap. If it had new paint he'd buy it. I actually took pleasure in his dismay when the rust bubbles started blowing holes in his purple metal flake A coupe. Shameful but I just felt great. :)
Yeah, Good shocks. I am going to try the '49 Chevy pickup single action arm shocks I just removed from an old frame. They all work but a couple need a little fluid. That means fluid went somewhere but I see no leaks. They only work in rebound so it will be very important to get the springs right. Some stiffness adjustment can be made with choice of fluid. If they don't work tube mounts are easy to fit in.
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I was looking at my axle today and wondering if Dick Bertalucci took his axle to a shop where they did dropped axles and had them reverse the curve on his axle ends and left the pad alone?
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Sixball That's why I asked how did he do it in the post earlier. It sure looks like the axle pad is original, just flipped some how. Ron
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It is sure a nice job. It would take someone with skill and the right tools to reverse the ends but someone who does dropped axles might be able to do that. Getting it all back in line, camber, caster.....It would probably be costly.
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That's impressive if they reversed it and made it look original.
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Dick Bertolucci who owns this car owned a huge collision repair shop in Sacramento. He is well up there in years and of course retired many years ago, so I think I'll call them and see if anyone could help us on this. Doubt they will help.
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That would be good. I'll doing some research on the process as well. My son and I can it work and look nice cutting and welding the mount plate. It would surely cost less.
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That would be the best approach Sixball..
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I sent a message to a Nostalgia Sid's and found some threads on the HAMB. It might be fun to do with my son.
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/drop-axles.122189/#post-1591137 (https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/drop-axles.122189/#post-1591137)
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/suspension-drop-axle-jig-2nd-generation-pics.198214/ (https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/suspension-drop-axle-jig-2nd-generation-pics.198214/)
https://droppedaxles.com (https://droppedaxles.com)
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That's impressive if they reversed it and made it look original.
Very much so, I can see it being done, don't believe it to be impossible
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Ron, Have you done anything on this?
I haven't heard from Sid and really didn't expect to. I know that of the guys in the videos can drop axles that my son and I could reverse the ends of mine. I noticed that there is a tab on top on the king pin boss that is a stop for the steering. That would end up on the bottom. It would have to be removed and another welded on the new top, All that said I think redesigning the mount is the best and easiest way to go. That would not mess with the geometry of the axle except for caster and that can be built into the mount by just angling the cut on the bottom of the axle. We could finish this before we got a fixture built for the other method and it would look just as good.
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Sorry it took time to get back to you. Today was my birthday and was busy most of the day. Have not heard anything from my call to them.. I'll call them again monday.. Ron
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I hope you had a nice birthday and got to spend your time with people you like. :)
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ChevRon Happy Birthday hope you enjoyed your day
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Happy birthday Ron!
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Happy birthday. 🎉
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Ron also have a great birthday! 🎂
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Thank you guys very kind of you.... I did have a good birthday. 77 and still throwing punches, just not landing many.
Sixball I did spend it with some people I like, my wife and my just turned 5 year old red heeler. Good enough for me along with well wishes from you guys Made my day Ron