Rusty Bowtie
General Category => General Discussion - Intros => Topic started by: munch on March 03, 2017, 12:50:30 PM
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I can warm my car up but when I drive it the first stop I come to, it will stall. If I continue to drive it, the problem goes away. Any ideas?
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Munch I don't know squat about most GM autos. My old Camaro(TH350) had a small leak at the dipstick when parked several days and if it was cold it would stall a bit at 1st couple stops. Usually at 3/4 qt low, top off and would be fine.
One of my 727 mopars did same and it was a week pump. On them also, the pump would not circulate if in park, so cold they would stall 2-3 seconds till fluid warmed/circulated.(I don't think GM had that falt) Had my buddy drill a passage(trans go kit) in my later trans to circulate in park
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Munch...is this the car you just installed EFI on? Which transmission do you have (is it a lock up)
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Yes it is, I was taking it out this keep happening. It is a 200R4 not built long ago. It stops after driving it some, but it shifts through the gears fast unless you are getting on it. I thought it was suppose to shift at certain speeds' I don't have the normal TV cable but a Bowler Trushift.
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Yes it is, I was taking it out this keep happening. It is a 200R4 not built long ago. It stops after driving it some, but it shifts through the gears fast unless you are getting on it. I thought it was suppose to shift at certain speeds' I don't have the normal TV cable but a Bowler Trushift.
Have you seen this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLTVxSS_Jxc
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Yes it is, I was taking it out this keep happening. It is a 200R4 not built long ago. It stops after driving it some, but it shifts through the gears fast unless you are getting on it. I thought it was suppose to shift at certain speeds' I don't have the normal TV cable but a Bowler Trushift.
Not that particular one, but that is how I went about setting mine up. The FiTech EFI is running but I have not fully tested it as the I became curious about the trans and the mufflers I put on are deafening.
Have you seen this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLTVxSS_Jxc
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Yes it is, I was taking it out this keep happening. It is a 200R4 not built long ago. It stops after driving it some, but it shifts through the gears fast unless you are getting on it. I thought it was suppose to shift at certain speeds' I don't have the normal TV cable but a Bowler Trushift.
The Bowler system seems a little simplistic in it's description of how the system on you transmission works. I have always use Bowtie Overdrives system with excellent luck . It allows the adjustment of shift points by giving you the ability to actually adjust the geometry of the cable as it rides over it's ramp. Setting the starting point of the throttle valve travel by just using wide open throttle to set the cable doesn't take into consideration any discrepancy's that might exist internally in the valve body that might affect the valve position. I also always use a pressure gauge to set the system up. If you want to take some time and educate yourself on the system take a look at the three part explanation posted on the Bowtie Overdrive site I've posted below. Another thought...Are you using a lock up converter??
Part 1 (http://www.tvmadeez.com/article/index.php)
Part 2 (http://www.tvmadeez.com/article/part2.php)
Part 3 (http://www.tvmadeez.com/article/part3.php)
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Yes it is, I was taking it out this keep happening. It is a 200R4 not built long ago. It stops after driving it some, but it shifts through the gears fast unless you are getting on it. I thought it was suppose to shift at certain speeds' I don't have the normal TV cable but a Bowler Trushift.
The Bowler system seems a little simplistic in it's description of how the system on you transmission works. I have always use Bowtie Overdrives system with excellent luck . It allows the adjustment of shift points by giving you the ability to actually adjust the geometry of the cable as it rides over it's ramp. Setting the starting point of the throttle valve travel by just using wide open throttle to set the cable doesn't take into consideration any discrepancy's that might exist internally in the valve body that might affect the valve position. I also always use a pressure gauge to set the system up. If you want to take some time and educate yourself on the system take a look at the three part explanation posted on the Bowtie Overdrive site I've posted below. Another thought...Are you using a lock up converter??
Part 1 (http://www.tvmadeez.com/article/index.php)
Part 2 (http://www.tvmadeez.com/article/part2.php)
Part 3 (http://www.tvmadeez.com/article/part3.php)
thanks Moose, this is very interesting. I originally went to the Bowler setup because the Gentleman that built my transmission past away and it was not shifting properly. I didn't understand how to set it up and found the Bowler solution when searching. Bowler is telling me to reset it and do a WOT from the accelerator pedal and not at the linkage. If that doesn't correct it, I am dealing with the wrong governor.
I could try and go back to the tv system and try to set. but like I said earlier I was having problems then. Perplexed...
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Is the trans using the lock-up feature? If so, can you try disabling power to it just to check for a sticky lock up solenoid?
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Is the trans using the lock-up feature? If so, can you try disabling power to it just to check for a sticky lock up solenoid?
Yes Ed, it does. What should happen when I disconnect power?
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I read somewhere about the brake switch controlling the lockup. I changed my brake switch in the brake line with a manual one beneath the pedal, did I mess up. So many things and so confusing. I'm sticking with it, no matter what.
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Is the trans using the lock-up feature? If so, can you try disabling power to it just to check for a sticky lock up solenoid?
Yes Ed, it does. What should happen when I disconnect power?
I found this
http://www.montecarloss.com/TCC_Solenoid.html
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Is the trans using the lock-up feature? If so, can you try disabling power to it just to check for a sticky lock up solenoid?
Yes Ed, it does. What should happen when I disconnect power?
I found this
http://www.montecarloss.com/TCC_Solenoid.html
If you disable it the lock up solenoid won't work and the torque converter won't lock up...that's all. It would be worth seeing if the tranny functions properly for a short time.
From what I understand with the 700R4 is that the transmission has a constant 12v power supply (with directional diode) that runs from the power source to the brake pedal switch (closed position) then into the transmission. The tranny via a hydraulic pressure switch powers the TTC solenoid - locking the torque converter.
When you apply the brakes, the pedal switch goes open circuit cutting off the TTC solenoid power which in turn unlocks the torque converter so the car won't stall when applying brakes.
If you cut the transmission power and the cars drives fine....you'll know that the problem is in the power to lock up somewhere.
BUT: we don't know for sure it's a tranny problem..but we need to start somewhere.
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Is the trans using the lock-up feature? If so, can you try disabling power to it just to check for a sticky lock up solenoid?
Yes Ed, it does. What should happen when I disconnect power?
I found this
http://www.montecarloss.com/TCC_Solenoid.html
If you disable it the lock up solenoid won't work and the torque converter won't lock up...that's all. It would be worth seeing if the tranny functions properly for a short time.
From what I understand with the 700R4 is that the transmission has a constant 12v power supply (with directional diode) that runs from the power source to the brake pedal switch (closed position) then into the transmission. The tranny via a hydraulic pressure switch powers the TTC solenoid - locking the torque converter.
When you apply the brakes, the pedal switch goes open circuit cutting off the TTC solenoid power which in turn unlocks the torque converter so the car won't stall when applying brakes.
If you cut the transmission power and the cars drives fine....you'll know that the problem is in the power to lock up somewhere.
BUT: we don't know for sure it's a tranny problem..but we need to start somewhere.
Thanks Ed, I have to do some work for my brother, but hope to be able to test it soon. Will definitely let everyone know.
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Is the trans using the lock-up feature? If so, can you try disabling power to it just to check for a sticky lock up solenoid?
Yes Ed, it does. What should happen when I disconnect power?
I found this
http://www.montecarloss.com/TCC_Solenoid.html
Ed,
Sorry it has taken so long, but I did disconnect the 12v to the trans and drove it. Same stall almost when stopping until warmed up. It shifts so fast it bogs the motor. Don't understand how the wiring works, no connection to a brake switch. Wired switched 12v to the left side of the Trans to a duel prong connector, then the other side runs the right side and connects right behind the shift lever. Look at pics. I am way over my head and frustrated. I can't even drive it to set up the EFI.
If you disable it the lock up solenoid won't work and the torque converter won't lock up...that's all. It would be worth seeing if the tranny functions properly for a short time.
From what I understand with the 700R4 is that the transmission has a constant 12v power supply (with directional diode) that runs from the power source to the brake pedal switch (closed position) then into the transmission. The tranny via a hydraulic pressure switch powers the TTC solenoid - locking the torque converter.
When you apply the brakes, the pedal switch goes open circuit cutting off the TTC solenoid power which in turn unlocks the torque converter so the car won't stall when applying brakes.
If you cut the transmission power and the cars drives fine....you'll know that the problem is in the power to lock up somewhere.
BUT: we don't know for sure it's a tranny problem..but we need to start somewhere.
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Yes it is, I was taking it out this keep happening. It is a 200R4 not built long ago. It stops after driving it some, but it shifts through the gears fast unless you are getting on it. I thought it was suppose to shift at certain speeds' I don't have the normal TV cable but a Bowler Trushift.
Have you seen this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLTVxSS_Jxc
That's a really neat system BOWLER has for the proper pull of the gas pedal line and the transmission line.
ATI trans was selling a similar idea but with simply a bracket that bolted onto the HOLLEY carb. It changed the ANGLE OF THE PULL like bowler does. There was also a switch that plugged into the 700R4 88--91 on drivers side and attached to an electrical switch that screwed into a port on the other PASS side, wire to fuse panel.
The bowler system with the way it works is a better mouse trap design. Huum how much ? $249 shmolies
mike 8)
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Sounds like your TV cable needs to be adjusted...I can only suspect that the wire to your shifter was intended to be wired to a "manual on/off switch". (To manually lock and unlock the torque converter) I have seen guys mount the on/off switch right on the shifter.
Are you the original owner of the car, did you install the tranny and set it up?
Take a look at this forum post also:
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/33-transmission-driveline/70321-200-4r-65%3B-shifting-too-fast.html
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It had a 400 and I wanted overdrive. A gentleman built the 200r4 for me and that is the way he wired it, no switch. It always shifted to soon for me, but not like now. I put it on the rack after a couple of trips last year and have been installing a 4 link, exhaust and the Fitech EFI. As I said, I had a Bowler Tru-shift TV cable on the Holley and did have to but a different part from them to work with the Fitech unit. Sinc e them it has never been right. Bowler had me reset the TV cable, but it did no good. They are now suggesting replacing with a lighter governor. I can't help thinking something is not setup right.
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I agree..I would spend some time adjusting that TV cable both in and out. If you want to try a different governor and if a 700R4 will work..I should have some out in the barn you can have.
I'm curious about that wire going up to the shifter,,,back up lights or lock-up?
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It runs from the fuse box to the passenger side of the trans and plugs into a two prong connector and leave the second prong and runs to the driver's side just behind the shift lever where there is a connection. The parts list did say L-U solenoid, could that be it?
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I bet L-U is the Lock Up solenoid.
Sounds like the transmission is wired to lock-up, the solenoid needs 12volts to lock up. What isn't clear is how the power is interrupted to unlock it. This has me concerned that you may have been driving the car in a locked up condition - not good. It would only unlock when the car was turned off and only if the 12v supply to the tranny was "key on" power.
Maybe Moose can jump in...but I would rather run it WITHOUT power to the tranny until you can determine how the power is interrupted which is normally done via the brake pedal.
Just thinking here :o ...but it could be possible to have an inline pressure switch plumbed into a brake line that is normally closed providing power to the tranny and when brakes are applied the pressure opens the contact...but I don't even know if such a switch is even made. It would be just the opposite of a brake pressure switch.
Can you contact the folks that did the conversion and ask them how the lock/unlock system works?
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I have TH350c which has a lock up converter and I used a duel contact brake switch to unlock mine.
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I have TH350c which has a lock up convertor and I used a duel contact brake switch to unlock mine.
That's the most common setup, power goes to the brake pedal first - then to the tranny. In the setup munch has...sounds like the power is routed to the tranny first - then the shifter...doesn't appear to be correct. Would think the power would go to the shifter (with on/off switch) then to the tranny so the power can be controlled at the shifter.
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munch...attached a diagram of the basic wiring for the 700R4 lockup. Also attached a picture of two lockup solenoids. Just thinking maybe your tranny could be set up to use the two wire solenoid so the wire going to your shifter supplies the ground?
Best if you could ask the person that built it to be sure.
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I would but the gentleman passes away. I guess I need to find someone that will look at a trans on a hot rod.
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Munch can you determine how and where the line to the shifter ends or is connected?
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Munch can you determine how and where the line to the shifter ends or is connected?
Where the green circle is on the driver side. It first goes to a two prong connector on the passenger side.
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Munch can you determine how and where the line to the shifter ends or is connected?
ED,
See pics
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You say wiring starts at the fuse block and connects to the pressure switch (in pic above)...but where and how does it terminate from the pressure switch? You say it enters the shifter...but is it hooked up to the shifter, a switch or does it just dead end?
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You say wiring starts at the fuse block and connects to the pressure switch (in pic above)...but where and how does it terminate from the pressure switch? You say it enters the shifter...but is it hooked up to the shifter, a switch or does it just dead end?
It goes from the fuse box to the terminal in the first picture, then out and across the transmission and terminates at the plug in the second picture directly behind the shifter.
This is strange, because on last year's trip it worked correctly and had overdrive.
Bowler is now asking me to locate a pressure gauge ant check the transmission pressure.
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OK...it appears that the kit uses transmission pressure to lock/unlock the tranny. You need to check the transmission pressure like they say, but you could also hook up a test light or better yet voltmeter to the line from the 2 prong switch to the square plug and drive the car.
Cruising you should have 12v when tranny locks, if not;
pressure is low -or-
bad switch -or-
no power from fuse block (blown fuse?)
If you do have a 12 volt signal you should feel it lock up, if not the solenoid inside the tranny is probably faulty.
Best initial test is to make sure you have 12 volts entering the two prong switch with key on (not running) just in case it's just a blown fuse.
Looking at the pictures I'd also check that taped connection at the square pin connector.
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Thanks, I hope to test both this weekend and will let you know.
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Been following this thread for a while and it looks like you've been getting a lot of good advice on how to pinpoint a lock up problem. One question comes to mind. Over the years I experienced dozens of problems with the tcc solenoid and pressure switches and internal issues with the torque converter not unlocking on 2004R and 700R4's causing a stall when coming to a stop. In all of these cases the car would shake pretty violently as if it were a car with a standard transmission you came to a stop without putting the clutch in. I was wondering if this is one of the symptoms you were experiencing.
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Been following this thread for a while and it looks like you've been getting a lot of good advice on how to pinpoint a lock up problem. One question comes to mind. Over the years I experienced dozens of problems with the tcc solenoid and pressure switches and internal issues with the torque converter not unlocking on 2004R and 700R4's causing a stall when coming to a stop. In all of these cases the car would shake pretty violently as if it were a car with a standard transmission you came to a stop without putting the clutch in. I was wondering if this is one of the symptoms you were experiencing.
Yes Moose it is, but after driving it that condition lessons. Now I can't sat for sure now since I have not driven it that far with the stacked shifting problem. Last year I took a little trip, 200 miles, and it worked great. Did not stagger at a stop after it was driven some(warmed up). In and out of overdrive fine. Always shifted to fast for me, but nothing I could not deal with.
Then I put it of the lift and did a four link, ordered and installed the Fitech EFI and did the plumbing and in-tank fuel pump. All which dragged out about 8 months. I did check with Bowler about supporting the Fitech unit since I was using their Tru-shift product, and they sent me one part to replace. Now I get ready to drive it and let the EFI set up and I have these staggering at a stop problems and fast shifting.
I hope to locate a pressure gauge this weekend and report on the results.
Thanks
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I have TH350c which has a lock up converter and I used a duel contact brake switch to unlock mine.
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62131...can you send what and how you wired tranny lock up converter.....what and how is it engaged and disengaged....thanks
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I'll have to find my wiring diagram, but I used a relay and a illuminated momentary switch mounted in the dash along with a duel contact brake switch, when wanting to lock up the converter after reaching cruising speed I push the switch it latches the relay illuminating the switch indicating lockup and sending 12v to the solenoid, then stepping on the brake it releases the relay turning off the light and removing the 12v signal. Pretty simple setup. My information is in the garage I'll send it to you tomorrow.
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Thanks a lot...
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I'll have to find my wiring diagram, but I used a relay and a illuminated momentary switch mounted in the dash along with a duel contact brake switch, when wanting to lock up the converter after reaching cruising speed I push the switch it latches the relay illuminating the switch indicating lockup and sending 12v to the solenoid, then stepping on the brake it releases the relay turning off the light and removing the 12v signal. Pretty simple setup. My information is in the garage I'll send it to you tomorrow.
Couldn't find my original drawing I think this is how it's wired it.
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I haven't forgot, I could not find a pressure gauge to borrow so I had to order one. Can someone give me some pointers of what to look for?
Thanks
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I'd look at post #30 above and do those tests first, then move to the pressure tests -some info below.
http://extremeautomatics.com/techHome.php
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/33-transmission-driveline/222392-how-use-tranny-pressure-gauge-2004r.html
Another:
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/33-transmission-driveline/70676-2004r-pressures-do-they-look-ok.html
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Does any one have a list of GM part number and parts names to hook up lock up converter as it came factory on these transmission?? Wanting to weigh the options..function , cost , and reliability of both options......and also never used one of these trannys so its a learning curve for me.... :-\.....gonna be needing a bunch of help as getting motor built now and wanting to get it installed asap....has anyone used the telfon/ braided hose kit wit AN fitting to plumb transmission to cooler???.....Tom gonna need a lot of info from you ;D..hope you don't mind
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I have them will just have to locate it I used it on my fuel lines. Check out ANfittings.com they are very reasonable and very good assortment seems to be good quality and easy to assemble
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Here you go Fatnlow vacuum switch 14032087 brake switch 25524845 vacuum check valve 14020691 the plug for the vacuum switch plug is not available and these are GM numbers Hope this helps
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62131...Thanks for info....gonna see what I can come up with.....
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.....Tom gonna need a lot of info from you ;D..hope you don't mind
I'll help you in any way I can Ed.
Tom
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Ok guys, thanks for all the information. I read it all and it made sense that the TV cable was ratcheting out too far causing the stacked shifts. What I could not figure was why. I finally got some at Bowler who seemed to know the setup pretty well and I sent him a picture. He immediately hit on slack in the cable which delayed the movement of the cable when the throttle was presses and that the cable was ratcheted out too far. He had me press the "D" button and move it back two clicks. I drove it Friday afternoon and it shifted nicely, both up and down. I ask him would it reset itself at WOT, and he said only it needed less tension. But that doesn't make sense, because it did it every other time.
I will keep working at it, at least I know what is going on.
As far as stalling at a stop, it still does that.
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Is the trans using the lock-up feature? If so, can you try disabling power to it just to check for a sticky lock up solenoid?
ED,
I forgot to say that I unhooked the power and it still trembled at a stop. After driving, some better but still trimbled.
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Is the trans using the lock-up feature? If so, can you try disabling power to it just to check for a sticky lock up solenoid?
ED,
I forgot to say that I unhooked the power and it still trembled at a stop. After driving, some better but still trimbled.
Sent you a PM....