General Category => General Discussion - Intros => Topic started by: munch on November 26, 2013, 09:47:56 AM
Title: Pinion seal
Post by: munch on November 26, 2013, 09:47:56 AM
The rear end in my 30 Coach is out of a 57 Chevy and the pinion seal is leaking. I did some research and bought the replacement seal and began to replace it. After removing the yoke their was nothing else visible but the pinion gear it self. I had read about a crush sleeve, but nothing was visible. I put the new seal in and it still has a small leak.
Any advice?
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: themoose on November 26, 2013, 11:22:48 AM
munch
The crush sleeve goes between the front and rear pinion gears and us used to set the preload on the pinion bearings. When replacing the pinion bearings the yoke nut is tighten to the point where the sleeve is crushed and the distance between the bearings is reduced. causing a load to be put on the bearings that is measured by the "Drag" or resistance measured while turning the pinion. You cannot see the sleeve when you remove the yoke . What you are looking at is the front pinion bearing inner race where . Usually a leak at the seal is caused by a grove being worn in the yoke where the seal rides or a pinion bearing that has failed causing the pinion to walk in the seal. I think if the bearing was worn you would hear a growling noise in the rear so that's most likely not the cause. One thing that you might check is that the pinion nut is torqued to the proper amount. If it's not then the bearings could have excessive play which could cause the seal to leak and also damage your gears.
Moose
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: woodremover on November 26, 2013, 11:37:39 AM
You should also be able to buy a sleeve that fits over the yoke to give the seal a new surface to run on, There is a name for them but I cant think of it at the moment, maybe someone else can chime in. They also sell them for harmonic balencers , when then seal wears a groove in them If I think of what they are called I will post it joe mac. They are called redi sleeves or speedy sleeves They are on e bay and should be available at a good supply house as well
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: munch on November 26, 2013, 11:49:02 AM
They did supply me with a package that had what was labeled as spacers about the same circumference as the pinion gear. I could not find anything that referenced them and did not use them.
I did try to mark the nut before taking it off so I could reinstall it correctly and do not have any up and down play at all.
I guess it is time to start over.
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: munch on November 26, 2013, 02:12:15 PM
The redi sleeve looks like the ticket, I cannot find how to order per application.
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: themoose on November 26, 2013, 03:52:15 PM
Check with NAPA . I think the redi-sleeve number is, 99170, and the seal number is 17727
Moose
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: munch on November 26, 2013, 04:08:46 PM
Moose you're the man... I found it and you are exactly right.
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: munch on November 27, 2013, 10:19:35 AM
woodremover,
thanks for putting me on the right track
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: 62131 on November 30, 2013, 09:35:05 PM
They are made by SKF Bearing Company, They were owned by C/r seals. You can find all the information on SKF's web site how to size it and their size chart along with the correct part number.
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: munch on December 01, 2013, 09:16:13 AM
Thanks all, it came in yesterday and I installed it. Looks good.
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: munch on December 08, 2013, 04:08:34 PM
Guys, I spoke too soon. It is leaking just sitting there. What do you think?
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: themoose on December 08, 2013, 04:31:21 PM
munch
I don't know if this could have any bearing on your problem but I had a similar issue with an early rear end that leaked while it was sitting. I was using GM's latest synthetic gear lube and apparently the capillary action was causing the lube to creep past the seal and gaskets. I tried a couple if different fixes and after some research I found out that some of the old gasket material and seals just can't deal with the new stuff so I finally went with the old style hypoid 90W gear lube and the leak stopped.... Just a thought.
Moose
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: woodremover on December 08, 2013, 07:09:41 PM
I too have tried to run synthetic oil in an older rear end and also had problems with leaking and also the posi cracking when turning as the oil is just to slippery.
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: munch on December 09, 2013, 01:59:27 PM
Moose, Woodremover
Any particular brand?
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: themoose on December 09, 2013, 02:46:18 PM
munch
I used Valvoline High=Performance 80W-90 Here are the specs
API Grade Rating:
GL5 or MT-1
Container Size:
1 qt
Conventional:
Yes
Extreme Pressure Additives:
No
Hose Included:
No
Synthetic Blend:
No
Synthetic:
No
Weight/Viscosity:
80W90
(http://www.valvoline.com/admin/p61.png) Moose
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: woodremover on December 09, 2013, 07:23:41 PM
Any good 80-90 weight gear oil will work fine I believe I used Castrol the last time I dis any work to my differential Don't forget to add a posi lubricant as well or your posi will not work properly. Should be available where ever you buy your lube
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: munch on December 13, 2013, 10:15:45 AM
I don't remember the brand, but I did go back to the parts store and check and it is not synthetic. I guess I will put in another seal and use the oil that Moose suggested and hope to get lucky.
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: munch on December 13, 2013, 10:21:02 AM
Is there suggestions to follow when replacing the seal that I may need to use to help eliminate the leaking?
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: trbomax on December 13, 2013, 10:39:53 AM
Ive been watching this thread and the only thing I can add is to grease the area behind and on the seal lips when you install the yoke so that the seal lips do not get damaged. How tight does the seal fit on the yoke before you install it in the case? Also on these axles if you are overfilling it the yoke seal will have oil behind it all the time and may drip when sitting. Its been a while since Ive had one of those apart, but there should be a slinger behind the seal that keeps oil in the case when the axle is turning.
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: trbomax on December 13, 2013, 10:43:39 AM
Another thing,are you sure its a 57 houseing? A 57 up houseing will have a fill plug on the back side of the houseing,55-56 will have the plug on the side of the carrier. Do you have a "down" angle on the pinion? this would trap a puddle of oil between the rear of the seal and the bearing. The pinion angle should be 0 to +3 up.
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: munch on December 13, 2013, 02:44:50 PM
If I remember correctly the center of the seal where the yoke slides through is rubber. Seems to fit well. The seal itself is tight in the housing. It took a bit to get it started, but then went well. I did not grease any of the seal.
The fill plug is at the back side of the housing and I fill it until it begins to over flow and then plug it.
Isn't it normal to have oil behind the seal?
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: trbomax on December 13, 2013, 05:20:08 PM
The seal should be a "tap it in" fit in the case. I have always cleaned the area so as to be totally free of any oil, and install the seal with blue locktite. As far as haveing oil at the back side of the seal,I dont know on the chev housing.I can go down the shop and measure the "58 houseing in my 28,.I would think the lip measured at the bottom of the yoke would be slightly higher than the lower edge of the fill plug hole. Mine sat for 50 years and is dry so there is defiinitly wrong here. A couple pics of the various parts might help.Something else,how are you driveing the seal in? You should drive it evenly all around the edge all at once. A big deep well socket works well or you could make a driver with a short piece of pipe with a piece of flat stock weld over one end. The idea is to keep it straight all around as it goes in..If you are tapping around the edges you may be distorting the seal houseing and if so,it will leak.
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: 62131 on December 13, 2013, 08:22:46 PM
Munch Did you install the speedi sleeve? Was there a wear groove on the pinion shaft where the old seal lip made contact? Which should have been where the speedi sleeve was positioned? If so the shaft should have been degreased and cleaned and then either RTV or blue Loctite put in the groove to fill the gap between the sleeve and shaft. If not this could be your source of the leak.
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: EDNY on December 13, 2013, 09:13:37 PM
I have a DVD on setting up rear end axles if anyone ever needs it. Covers installing, shimming gears, crush bearings etc.
Ed
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: munch on December 14, 2013, 10:34:03 AM
The instructions for the sleeve said use a thin coat of non-hardening sealer so I had Permatex 2 and used that. There was a slight groove and the sleeve covered it fine. Should I start over?
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: 62131 on December 14, 2013, 01:43:07 PM
I'm not sure if the #2 permatex would seal properly in this application. The sleeve should have fit so tightly on the shaft that you would have had to drive or press it on with the application tool provided in the kit. Then the drive ring would have been trimmed off. After you installed the sleeve you should have put a piece of tape around the sleeves edge and lightly lubed it so that when the seal slid over the edge of the sleeve it would not have cut the seal lip. If I remember correctly the seal you used the first two digits were 17 which calls out a 1.750 id. do you remember the OD or the part number of the sleeve you purchased?
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: trbomax on December 14, 2013, 02:14:45 PM
I would have used locktite red(non removeable) between the sleeve and the yoke.I would think that perm #2 is too thick to be efective in such a tight tolerance.
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: 62131 on December 14, 2013, 02:28:26 PM
Quick metal or Red or Blue Loctite would be ok, Red would be difficult to remove if it ever needed to be, heat above above 400 degrees would need to be applied to release it, this could possibly damage the bearings.
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: themoose on December 14, 2013, 05:44:35 PM
I did a little more research on the leaking while sitting issue on early GM rears and I found a couple of cased where guys found oil seeping through the splines between the yoke and pinion. Apparently if the manufacturing tolerances stack up on the loose side it can cause the problem on some rear ends. The suggestion was to but a sealer such as RTV on the splines when you assemble it after the seal is replaced. I've never seen the condition myself but it cant hurt to try.
Moose
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: munch on December 14, 2013, 07:56:10 PM
62131
I didn't take the drive ring off because I bottomed it out. Should I?
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: 62131 on December 15, 2013, 10:07:59 AM
The shaft should have been cleaned then a sealant applied in the groove. As the new sleeve was installed centered over the groove it would push the excess off, and the excess should be removed. Then trim the push ring off. Put tape around the edge of the sleeve to protect the seal lip be sure to but a lube on both the tape and seal and then install the seal. If you need a new seal and sleeve I have access to these things thru work where I can get you a really good discount, if you can wait for me to get it out of our warehouse and ship it to you. I will check my pricing if you would like maybe I can save you some money. As Moose mentioned, I have seen the RTV applied to the splines to keep oil from seeping thru them. Again everything needs to be really clean with no oily residue present when applying the sealant.
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: munch on December 19, 2013, 12:03:54 PM
I got the recommended oil and a new seal and you think I should put another sleeve on? That one is on tight, but a I said I did not trim off the push ring.
If so, how will it come off?
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: 62131 on December 19, 2013, 05:59:28 PM
I cant tell you if the #2 Permatex was the correct sealant to use at this time. If you can wait until tomorrow night I will give my Permatex rep. a call and ask if it was ok to use it in this application. The sleeve should have fit tight, it will actually stretch its self around the shaft as you drive it on. The sealant is used to fill the void and to stop any lube from seeping thru between the sleeve and shaft. As far a removing the push ring if it is not in the way of anything and does not rub on the seal it does not have to be removed, if you noticed before installing the sleeve there was a groove around it and that is to aid in the removal of the push ring. One other question did you put the recommended amount of oil in the rear end?
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: Cool53 on December 19, 2013, 07:14:57 PM
Be careful on posi fluid, most brands say for top off only. The posi won't work for beans with it. And leaking at the seal on those old diffs, we have one in the dragster, can be caused by fluid coming past the splines and out around the nut. Leak like crazy they do. Can't get the old lead paste any more so use a really good rtv like The Right Stuff or Ultra Black or Dow Corning 739 (the best) will stop the leak.
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: Cool53 on December 20, 2013, 07:47:16 AM
Seal the pinion to flange splines well with a good RTV like Ultra Black or the Right Stuff, too. The dragster we have has an old GM diff and it was pouring oil out that looked like the seal but it was actually coming by the splines.
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: munch on December 20, 2013, 08:41:59 AM
I have read much about putting sealant on the spline gears and I certainly did not do that, nor did I put any around the sides of the pinion seal. Thanks 62131, I will wait to head about the #2 Permatex. Cool53, I am going to coat those gears.
Tomorrow I plan to take it back down and clean everything really well, deal with the ring if necessary, add the recommended tape on the ring to protect the seal (any particular kind?), install and hope for the best.
Oh, I filled the rear end until it started to come out, then put the plug in.
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: 62131 on December 20, 2013, 07:13:56 PM
Munch I checked with the Permatex rep today he said there should be no reason for it not seal just as long as you put enough in and around the groove so that when you installed the sleeve the groove was completely filled. As far as the type of tape I always use electrical tape as it will stretch a little and you can get it tight around the shaft. To remove the push ring you can take a pair of diagonal pliers and snip the push ring and it will tear off very easy.
I'm in the middle of replacing axle bearings, seals and all the brake hardware in my rear end now, My frame is at the sand blaster getting cleaned up. I thought I would go ahead and get the rear end ready to install and found the seal on the passenger side was bad. So since I had to remove the axle I figured why not replace the bearings. I'm using a rear end out of a 85 Monte Carlo.
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: munch on December 20, 2013, 07:27:49 PM
Thanks, I just took the yoke back off and the leak trail comes from the center of the seal and not from the sides. I have a new seal if you think it needs replacing or just go with the clean up and sealant on the gears?.
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: 62131 on December 20, 2013, 08:17:21 PM
Are you calling the splines the gears? If so I would try the clean up on the splines or gears and try the sealant there, if you are sure you didn't nick the lip of the seal.
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: munch on December 20, 2013, 08:44:07 PM
Yes, ok.
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: munch on December 23, 2013, 01:04:09 PM
Just wanted to let everyone know that I followed your suggestions and we will wait and see. I did get confused about the crush sleeve I was told about and thought mine did not have one, but the attached diagram showed me where it was located.
On a single traction rear end is it normal to experience a small delay and thump when turning the rear wheel from one direction to the other?
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: munch on December 30, 2013, 11:06:02 AM
Maybe the second time is a charm. It has been a week now and no leak so far. I even took it on a short test drive this weekend.
Thanks all.
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: 62131 on December 30, 2013, 07:56:08 PM
Well Munch let us know what you did. Glad to hear you got it fixed.
Title: Re: Pinion seal
Post by: munch on January 02, 2014, 01:22:15 PM
I took all the advice and cleaned it very well and used plenty of RTV on the spline gears.