Rusty Bowtie
General Category => General Discussion - Intros => Topic started by: munch on February 21, 2015, 03:37:08 PM
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I am installing a Holley 12-801-1 electric fuel pump and the instructions say to mount it below and close to the gas tank. I have a 1930 Coach and the tank sits low in the frame with no place to mount a fuel pump lower. The instructions say it is designed to push not suck.
The Mr. Gasket pump, which I was told to get rid of, was mounted in the inside frame forward and above the tank and it worked.
Any thoughts?
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Is it possible to move it forward on the frame little to get it below the tank? I would think that if it is flooded as the instruction indicate it should be fine.
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I can move it more forward, but it still would not be below the tank, although somewhat lower.
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would it be below the level of the fuel in the tank?
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I have the same situation with my 33 Chevy, I finally just mounted the fuel pump on top of the fuel cell. I did route the line from the tank up above the fuel pump and then back down about an inch...just trying to keep the pump primed if that makes sense?
Kinda like making a loop (up and down) with the pump at the bottom so it doesn't go dry.
Running fuel injection and using a Ford 70-95 PSI inline pump Delco #EP286.
Haven't had a problem yet in the yard...but I haven't been on the road full time yet.
Ed
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The tank hangs under the frame so no where will be lower,
Ed,
Do you have a pic?
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Here is a pic of what I am dealing with.
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I have a old stewart warner A240 fuel pump that's adjustable, been on the car since 1974.
It mounts behind the rear end and ahead of the fuel tank, that small 10" area. I made a bracket and mounted it too the frame. I have a loop of -6 aeroquip hose from tank too the pump. You will need a pipe thread to go into the tank with dash -4 aeroquip adaptor too -6 too the fuel pump. -4 is really small orifice for the gas to pass thru and anything floating around in the tank will jamb the opening. I placed the adaptor fitting in a drill press vice and opened took it out to largest I could make it.
Why, because the gas tank liner rubbery stuff some came loose after 30 years and plugged the stock size -4 fitting. Making me get a ride home on back of a flatbed tow truck and for me to figure out what happened ????????
mike................... 8)
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Here is a pic of what I am dealing with.
mount the bracket and pump so it hangs down between rear and non stock tank..at same level....you never said it wasn't in stock factory location
also a factory sbc mechanical fuel pump will draw the fuel your motor will need.
mike 8)
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Mike,
You think I would be better to go with a mechanical pump?
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I used the exact same method as madmike by making a bracket to mount the pump in the space between the tank and the rear end. The pump suction side inlet sits even with the bottom of the tank which is the ideal setup.
You can just see the bottom of the pump in the attached photo. I mounted the pump the the bracket on rubber insulators to keep things and also installed a cleanable fuel filter on the out line and also have one at the carb....Works great
Moose
(http://i428.photobucket.com/albums/qq7/themoose524/1932%20Chevy/rear8_zps2701b29d.jpg)
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Munch, I think Moose has the best setup for using that type of elec. fuel pump, it's low and protected behind the reart. But I am just curious, why not go with a mechanical pump? I'm using a mechanical Edelbrock on my 350/350 that's bored out 0.030. I might be just a tad under-carbureted but I haven't had a problem........yet ::). And, there are no clearance problems with the frame. The pictures aren't too good, but you get the idea.
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Here is a pic of what I am dealing with.
Been tying to find a picture of mine...but it's just about the same as your picture. I made an access panel from the trunk to service the sending unit, fuel pump and filter. My pump is rubber mounted & located about where your work light is.
I'll keep looking...
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Just went out to the dark barn and took some pictures....it may not look like it...but the fuel pump is about an inch lower than the feed line.
Ed
BTW: I have a fuel screen before the pump and a GM filter after the pump.
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I used the exact same method as madmike by making a bracket to mount the pump in the space between the tank and the rear end. The pump suction side inlet sits even with the bottom of the tank which is the ideal setup.
You can just see the bottom of the pump in the attached photo. I mounted the pump the the bracket on rubber insulators to keep things and also installed a cleanable fuel filter on the out line and also have one at the carb....Works great
Moose
(http://i428.photobucket.com/albums/qq7/themoose524/1932%20Chevy/rear8_zps2701b29d.jpg)
I am looking and looking, where the hells the fuel pump, what the ?? Then I see the slide bar at bottom of pictures and move the picture over........WHY YA LITTLE HAIRBALL , THERE YA BE .
I would make a double L bracket using the inside of the side frame rail, unless the exh pipe or shock or something is in the way.
Oh by way what brand of mufflers are you running and how loud or quiet are they????
mike......... 8)
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Mike,
You think I would be better to go with a mechanical pump?
I'm running a mechanical fuel pump on my 38 and I've got a mechanical fuel pump on my 32 which fit in the frame rail with no problem.
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mechanical pumps can be a lot less hassle than electrics. Not sure what stock pressure a factory mechanical pump puts out for street use ?????
ANYBODY KNOW ANSWER. ??????????
My stewart warner A240 12volt that's pressure adjustable is sometimes a pain in the A hole. Even tho I have the pressure set at the guage with a holly pressure regulator that's also adjustable. Many times while its warming up it exceeds the 5 pounds pressure I prefer its set too. On the old crank and chrome tv show with sam and dave, they recommended 5 1/2 pounds on carbs for street. Just one of those things that's stuck with me.
What does that do, it causes the float arms on the holley when exceeding 6 pounds to bend, then you have to pull the side inspection plugs and adjust the floats down . You will know when they are bent as you get a blackish smoke out tail pipes and stench of raw gasoline, from running way to rich by floats being too high. Holley's are very , very temperamental that way.
With my 35 chevy roadster build , am planning a ZZ383 425 hp 460 torque crate motor, induction system will be a fast Freddie 48 IDF down draft webers. Max pressure recommended on those is 3 1/2 pounds pressure. I have a holley 1-4 pound regulator for it.
mike 8)
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Summit has a movie on about Electric vs Mechanical fuel pumps.
You can watch it here (http://youtu.be/mhPP6pnisL4)
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If it will fit in the frame area, I think the stock mechanical pump should work just fine. I bought a stock mechanical pump that was originally for an early corvette injected engine, and like some other pumps, it has the ability to be clocked for line fitting.
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mechanical pumps can be a lot less hassle than electrics. Not sure what stock pressure a factory mechanical pump puts out for street use ?????
ANYBODY KNOW ANSWER. ??????????
My stewart warner A240 12volt that's pressure adjustable is sometimes a pain in the A hole. Even tho I have the pressure set at the guage with a holly pressure regulator that's also adjustable. Many times while its warming up it exceeds the 5 pounds pressure I prefer its set too. On the old crank and chrome tv show with sam and dave, they recommended 5 1/2 pounds on carbs for street. Just one of those things that's stuck with me.
I put a mechanical on my 38 that has a Edlebrock 600 and was told by Edlebrock that it should be supplied by a pump that put out no more than 6lbs of pressure, I did some checking on fuel pumps and found they come with different flow rates and different pressure ratings pressures.
What does that do, it causes the float arms on the holley when exceeding 6 pounds to bend, then you have to pull the side inspection plugs and adjust the floats down . You will know when they are bent as you get a blackish smoke out tail pipes and stench of raw gasoline, from running way to rich by floats being too high. Holley's are very , very temperamental that way.
With my 35 chevy roadster build , am planning a ZZ383 425 hp 460 torque crate motor, induction system will be a fast Freddie 48 IDF down draft webers. Max pressure recommended on those is 3 1/2 pounds pressure. I have a holley 1-4 pound regulator for it.
mike 8)
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In all fairness to munch...he asked about installing an electric pump...the thread took another direction. A mechanical pump will work..everyone agrees on that...but his questions was about mounting an electric pump that he already has. He also mentioned that he had an electric pump on the car previously and was just replacing it.
I was in the same situation and read where guys had them mounted on the tank without a problem..so that's how I did mine.
I have a feeling that the biggest concern in mounting an electric pump is to be sure it always has fuel in it, which acts as a lubricant? The pumps burn up when dry...so my idea was to position the pump in a way that fuel will always settle inside the pump so it doesn't start dry? Again..I may be wrong?
The manufacturer intructs you to mount them low or risk failure. I bet failure is a result of dry starts..so could a simple solution like routing the in and out lines higher than the pump be a solution so the fuel rests in the pump ???
Again....just asking...please be gentle :) :)
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The manufacturer intructs you to mount them low or risk failure. I bet failure is a result of dry starts..so could a simple solution like routing the in and out lines higher than the pump be a solution so the fuel rests in the pump ???
Again....just asking...please be gentle :) :)
Hi Ed. The pump he had was a suction type, and the new pump he has is a gravity style that pushes only and needs the fuel in the tank and lines to be higher at all times. I believe that is why it has to be in a lower position than his original.
Hey Munch. Why was you told to get rid if your original pump?
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It was a cheap Mr. Gasket and I was warned that they were prone to failure. I did not want to take the chance.
I have mounted a bar between the frame rails as suggested and got the pump some lower, hope I will be fine.
Thanks guys for all the input.
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Well after installing my new Holley electric fuel pump I scared myself most to death. Fill up with gas and went on a ride, about 15 minutes out I noticed a half a tank reading on the fuel gauge. Headed home and when I got there, I had 1/4 tank. After looking I discovered the rubber hose between the filter and stainless line had burst. I dumped 3/4 of a tank on the muffler and tail pipe.
Any experience with stainless braided hose and push on connectors, or do they make such a thing. I'm shy of the rubber now.
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You can have any type of stainless hose made up, I would just make sure that the lining in the braided hose is compatible with gas,and be sure of your fitting sizes.
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Thanks for all the help guys, I thought I owed you a pic. Woks great...
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Looks great!! Nice work
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Well after installing my new Holley electric fuel pump I scared myself most to death. Fill up with gas and went on a ride, about 15 minutes out I noticed a half a tank reading on the fuel gauge. Headed home and when I got there, I had 1/4 tank. After looking I discovered the rubber hose between the filter and stainless line had burst. I dumped 3/4 of a tank on the muffler and tail pipe.
Any experience with stainless braided hose and push on connectors, or do they make such a thing. I'm shy of the rubber now.
If You bottomed the braided stainless properly into the fitting , it should not come apart. That's the only way the fitting and the braided hose can separate. Note when you push the hose into the aeroquip fitting, look from the open end and see if its bottomed out. Now take a marker pen and mark the hose where end of the hose goes into the fitting.
If your tightening it up properly that mark should NOT MOVE OUTWARDS.
Its actually fairly easy to not put these together correctly. once you know the basic steps its easy. There is also a specific oil for assembly sold by aeroquip dealers like godman
There is one black hose running behind the electric pump, I have no idea where that's going or coming from ???
mike
mike
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Thanks for all the help guys, I thought I owed you a pic. Woks great...
Looking at your picture I am trouble figuring out the 2 small lines forward by the shock coming off the front. Are they steel line or stainless braided lines for ???
mike
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Looks like braided stainless brake lines to me..
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Those are brake lines.
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Those are brake lines.
Is there a flexible brake line running to the rear end ????????????
Hard to tell 100% looking at the pictures.
the steel lines should not be moving up and down with the rear end while attached to the frame. Its a safety issue for your health.
mike
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Yes, the lines are flexible.
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Looks great, Munch. Very clean and secure.
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Hi Munch. The mounting looks great, and I bet the steel lines make you more comfortable. You stated the pump needed to be below the tank, and you got it to work on top. How did you get it to work with this type of mounting?
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OK i want to tell you about BILLIE BOB he bought three thats right three hp electric fuel pumps at 145 each.He burned all three up. Why you ask,,,because they were push not pull pumps and they ran dry no lubrication no cooling and dry to start means trouble.
There are two types of fuel pumps that are electrical a push pump and a pull pump and they do exactly what it says it does you can not use one for the others purpose
Ok we all know that a standard mechanical pump runs between 3 and 5 pounds pressure
An electrical pump inline for a TBI system runs between 9 and 12 pounds and has a return line to the fuel tank
A Multi Port system runs between 40 and 55 pounds and has a return line to the fuel tank
A Sequential fuel pump system runs between 55 and 60 pounds presure
On the track I run an electrical fuel pump that pumps a constant 7 pounds of fuel to a mechanical fuel pump that pumps 5 to 7 pounds of presure to a 750 holley carb and i have never had a problem other that blowing a fuse on the electrical pump. If you are going to use a push pump you are going to have to place it as close to the source and as low as possible.A pull type fuel pump could literally be placed anywhere.
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OK, I'm still learning and you guys are great for that. I didn't know about push and pull pumps until I started this thread. Maybe I will learn more from my mistake, hopefully not. I choose the current mounting location to stay away from the exhaust. There wasn't really a choice. I ran the input line higher that the pump, as EDNY suggested so as to always have fuel in the pump and eliminate dry starts.
If this setup fails, I guess go at it again.
Thanks all.
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The mounting of the pump looks very secure and out of the way :)
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Thanks guys, but I am a bit gun shy. I don't want to be stranded.
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I have been running the old stewart warner A240 pump since 1973 when I pulled the stock mechanical pump off.
I have had the pump mounted at then same height at the exit of the gas line out the side and also below the frame. I simply turn the key to ON, listen to the pump click away until it goes into a click from a buzz sound........I also listen for the vacuum pump for the power brakes to finish loading up, hit gas pedal to activate electric choke,. turn key to start and it fires right away. Been doing that since 73.
I have about 5 of those stewart warner A240 pumps just in case this one gives up on me, because nobody has rebuild parts I know of anymore. There were a couple of guys on ebay and in England , making some parts for them last I looked----year ago.
mike 8)/size]
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Madmike3434 I see you have a pretty health v8 chevy in mind for that weee car Have you talked with CURT from AJAX about a total engine I have a real good friend that just purchased a boxed 383 with all the goodies and he told me it was cheaper and more personal than purchasing a crate engine and ajax is just over the hill from your place . Now 425 hp and 460 torque dont you think that is a little much for the 35,shouldn't that peel the paint of the front end lol vette59jdwl
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In all fairness to munch...he asked about installing an electric pump...the thread took another direction. A mechanical pump will work..everyone agrees on that...but his questions was about mounting an electric pump that he already has. He also mentioned that he had an electric pump on the car previously and was just replacing it.
I was in the same situation and read where guys had them mounted on the tank without a problem..so that's how I did mine.
I have a feeling that the biggest concern in mounting an electric pump is to be sure it always has fuel in it, which acts as a lubricant? The pumps burn up when dry...so my idea was to position the pump in a way that fuel will always settle inside the pump so it doesn't start dry? Again..I may be wrong?
The manufacturer intructs you to mount them low or risk failure. I bet failure is a result of dry starts..so could a simple solution like routing the in and out lines higher than the pump be a solution so the fuel rests in the pump ???
Again....just asking...please be gentle :) :)
Ed,
What do you think?
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Is this the gas tank that is under the pump ,and is this pump a push pump or a pull pump?????
thanks vette59jdwl
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Is this the gas tank that is under the pump ,and is this pump a push pump or a pull pump?????
thanks vette59jdwl
Vette,
Yes that is the tank and it is a Holley Red pump. It has pretty strong suction on the bench, but I am pretty sure it is a push type. It prime fast and I mounted the input line higher that the pump in hopes of keeping it primed.
It is hard to tell in the pic but there is no place to mount it even with the output without hanging it where it could be hit and on top of the exhaust.
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not sure where I saw it EBAY ???, was a one way single valve that stopped flow back on gasoline. Was an aeroquip and dash -6 fitting .
Have to check if its still in my ebay watching.
mike 8)
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Madmike3434 I see you have a pretty health v8 chevy in mind for that weee car Have you talked with CURT from AJAX about a total engine I have a real good friend that just purchased a boxed 383 with all the goodies and he told me it was cheaper and more personal than purchasing a crate engine and ajax is just over the hill from your place . Now 425 hp and 460 torque dont you think that is a little much for the 35,shouldn't that peel the paint of the front end lol vette59jdwl
[/nothing is written in stone as far engine choice is concerned...........might be a ZZ4 again with hot cam set up, or the ZZ383 . Induction system is going to be a set of 48 IDF webers. Just ordered a tremec magnum T56 6 speed stick trans today to go behind one of them.
The T56 might allow me to attempt the CANADIAN land speed record on the 401 ..
mike 8)font]
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In all fairness to munch...he asked about installing an electric pump...the thread took another direction. A mechanical pump will work..everyone agrees on that...but his questions was about mounting an electric pump that he already has. He also mentioned that he had an electric pump on the car previously and was just replacing it.
I was in the same situation and read where guys had them mounted on the tank without a problem..so that's how I did mine.
I have a feeling that the biggest concern in mounting an electric pump is to be sure it always has fuel in it, which acts as a lubricant? The pumps burn up when dry...so my idea was to position the pump in a way that fuel will always settle inside the pump so it doesn't start dry? Again..I may be wrong?
The manufacturer intructs you to mount them low or risk failure. I bet failure is a result of dry starts..so could a simple solution like routing the in and out lines higher than the pump be a solution so the fuel rests in the pump ???
Again....just asking...please be gentle :) :)
Ed,
What do you think?
That basically is how I have mine setup...mine works fine!